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TransformED with STEP Up
Welcome to TransformED, the podcast designed for instructional leaders and educators ready to drive real change in their schools. If you're looking for innovative ways to transform education, you're in the right place.
Each episode delves into key issues affecting education, identifying flaws in traditional systems and exploring effective strategies for leaders. From tackling complex challenges to discovering groundbreaking approaches, we provide the tools needed for meaningful school transformation.
TransformED with STEP Up
Dr. Mike Schmoker on Simplifying School Improvement: Curriculum, Instruction, & Literacy
In this episode of TransformEd with StepUp, we sit down with Dr. Mike Schmoker — former teacher, administrator, and nationally recognized author of Focus and Results Now.
Dr. Schmoker shares the disconnect he saw early in his career between teacher preparation programs and the actual needs of classrooms. He outlines three essential elements schools should prioritize above all else:
- Clear curriculum guidance — what to teach and when.
- Structured instruction — with regular checks for understanding.
- Literacy — purposeful reading, discussion, and writing across subjects.
The conversation explores how leaders can simplify professional development, keep staff focused on proven practices, and monitor implementation for real results. Dr. Schmoker closes with his perspective on the future of education — noting both encouraging momentum in phonics instruction and the stubborn persistence of ineffective practices.
Whether you’re a classroom teacher, principal, or district leader, this episode offers practical guidance to cut through the noise and focus on what works.
Resources:
Madeline Hunter Instructional Model
Sold a Story Podcast Series (Emily Hanford)
If Literacy is a Priority, Why Do We Cling to the Wrong Practices? EduWeek Article
Welcome to
SPEAKER_01:Transform Ed with Step Up. We want to build the knowledge base of instructional leaders. We aim to transform education here. Let's
SPEAKER_00:get into it. Welcome to Transform Ed with Step Up, the podcast that brings clarity and actionable insight to the heart of education. I'm your host, Valerie Montgomery. And I'm Shauna Stefanczyk. And today we're joined by someone whose work has transformed how we think about instruction, literacy, and leadership in schools. Dr. Mike Schmoker is a former administrator, English teacher, and football coach who has become one of educators' most influential voices. He's the author of Thank you so much for being with us this morning, Dr. Schmoker.
SPEAKER_03:You're so welcome. Great to be with y'all.
SPEAKER_00:So you have been a teacher, a coach, an administrator. Now you're an author and a consultant. Can you share a little bit of how your journey and how you ended up here and what led you to focus on the simplicity in schools?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you know, almost from the time I became interested in schooling and being a teacher, which actually starts, doesn't it, for all of us in some ways? when we're in school, when we're in that K-12 system, when we're evaluating what's going on, we're evaluating how we're being taught. And I can always remember thinking, you know, there was some really, really good teaching we got and some other teaching that wasn't so wonderful. And you began to see patterns and what was good and what wasn't. And then when I began to go through my education courses as an undergrad and my student teaching, that was a revelation. Everything I thought was absolutely vital and important seemed to have very low priority when I began to take ed classes. Just to give you an example, I was taking English teaching methods. Now, you would think that English teaching methods, this is for secondary, mind you, there'd be plenty of emphasis and opportunity on becoming better at, say, leading discussions, teaching writing, how to ensure that students know how to read effectively and analytically. Absolutely Absolutely none of that was ever even touched on. It was bulletin boards. It was making little packets with crossword puzzles and activities and things students could do in small groups and on and on. And then I get to student teaching, and a mythology unit that I was helping these two teachers out with basically consisted of watching movies, making togas out of sheets, garlands out of wire hangers that the kids could wear around their heads, making fruit salad and calling it ambrosia. A longer list, you can't believe, a longer list of things that had nothing to do with becoming either a better speaker or writer or reader. And that was my student teaching. So early on, I began to think what really ought to go on in classrooms might just be drastically different than what than what we're told to do in, say, education classes and, and I have to say, as well as PD, where I saw just about the same patterns there as I saw in undergraduate work. So that I could go on, but that's kind of, that might give you that part of the journey that explains my urgency to write the books I write.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And you, it sounds like you, you saw that really early on, even before you were in the classroom, you noticed it in your in your preparation courses, which I don't know, Shauna, can you kind of relate to that? Do you remember some trends of your undergrad? I
SPEAKER_01:remember a lot of busy work because I feel like that's just our profession in general. When you talk about tokens, it's lots of busy work. And then I had the same realization. Mine really took place that first year of teaching, which is why I formed this company too, is I realized day one, I was underprepared. I didn't came into a classroom and i didn't know how to teach kids how to read i'd done tons of projects to your point on all these little fun boards and and then i realized i don't know phonics and how to teach and so you know i just resonate with you as well that's what we're trying to do with systems and processes and i've given up the battle of trying to get a higher ed to come on board i think we just have to do it as practitioners and we have to help practitioners take the bulls by the horn can
SPEAKER_03:i just weigh in to say and i said this to the group i had a podcast with yesterday as well. Your candor and your willingness to be frank about the gap between preparation and the realities of being an effective teacher, we all have to be much more frank and detailed about what we are and aren't getting, or it'll never change. If enough of us, I think, rise up and say, hey, we really need your help. Imagine what would happen if the PD and undergrad teacher prep community decided to focus on priorities. the things we really need. It would be transformational and it would be swift.
SPEAKER_01:Completely. And I think that's what's so upsetting is we're trying to do it. I've had conversations with people when I did new teacher training in my district and professors were like, oh, read my book. And I'm like, I'm telling you it doesn't work because we're left trying to train them. So thank you for the empowerment. We'll keep the
SPEAKER_02:fight. Oh, good for you.
SPEAKER_00:So let's kind of flip that and And so I think we all have experienced the overcomplication. You call it overcomplicating school improvement. So if we flip it and we say, okay, here's what we do need to focus on, what do you believe are the essential elements schools should be focusing on?
SPEAKER_03:Well, the three things which I always write about, and there's not a very strong argument against these three. They're completely unoriginal on my part. I just began, you know, over time you think, well, look over the landscape. listen to the people who are the most respected in the field and for the larger mass of researchers and what do they all agree on. It well could be that number one is you having a clear guide as a teacher about what you need to teach and when. So that when you arrive as a teacher, there's a little wiggle room for you to do some of your own thing. But in the main, you have a schedule of what to teach and when. That very phrase I have stolen from like Everything I tout is stolen by Linda Darlan-Hammond. That's what a curriculum is. You know about how much time to devote to it, approximately in what order and when, and you know what to teach and you don't have to lay in bed wondering, what should I be teaching? In the absence of a curriculum, chaos rushes in. This is where worksheets, endless fruitless group work rushes in and innovation upon innovation that sounds cool, but has no real impact. And that's number one. Number two, structured instruction that has, and I rather than elaborate, I'll just assume people know enough about this to get it, structured instruction. Most of the time, not all, not all instruction is structured and taught by the teacher in the front of the classroom, but a large amount, perhaps the, I'd say an easy majority of it, the teacher teaching the entire class in small segments and checking for understanding between each segment to see if most or all of the kids are getting it. And if they're not, we reteach. That simple cycle is something almost every teacher's heard, but it's never been emphasized. It wasn't imparted with anything like energy and enthusiasm when most of us were undergrads. And we don't get enough of it in undergraduate preparation. Number three, literacy in the most ordinary sense. Loads of purposeful reading, discussion about that reading, and writing about that reading. That should be 80% of the English language arts curriculum and just about that same amount for social studies and a huge chunk of science and some amount of all the other courses as well. Those three things, curriculum, effect Effective, structured instruction most of the time, not all but most. And number three, literacy in the most ordinary sense of that word.
SPEAKER_00:That's music to my ears. I may have to add in like a clap track. Oh,
SPEAKER_03:please, please. I
SPEAKER_00:don't know how, but
SPEAKER_03:I'll figure it
SPEAKER_00:out.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, well, go
SPEAKER_01:ahead. Well, I was going to say, well, we've completely tricked you into coming on this call to endorse what we do because we We believe the exact same thing. And I love that you quoted Linda Darling-Hammond. I quote, I call Marzano the godfather, which I think you mentioned you're friends with him. You know him.
SPEAKER_03:Well, sure. And he has really had as much influence on me as anybody in helping me to realize curriculum is probably the big one.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And I did
SPEAKER_03:work. I worked with Bob and across the hall from him for about eight months.
SPEAKER_01:I knew you had mentioned that at one point when you spoke because one time I got to meet him and I was so excited. He said, you really need to get a life. I said, hey.
SPEAKER_02:People do kind of worship him. It kind of amazes
SPEAKER_01:him. I know, it's so funny. Well, because as a former, instruction's always been big to me. So of course I consumed so many of his books, but guaranteed and viable curriculum. And I think the tricky part, because my next question is, how do we overcomplicate it? And I'm like, well, I wonder what you think about our approach is I think what happens is I think there's this inner part. I mean, there's all this research that says what we should do. It's the how for people. Okay, if I have to have that, how do I do it? And that's something our company tries to specialize in. But then also, so let's say we can get that clear curriculum because I think that is the big gap. It's the gap I had. I walked in and nobody said, hey, here's your curriculum and what you should teach. How was that happening? You know, and that's one the biggest to me systemic barriers in our field that we have this door that revolving door that we don't give that to teachers but the biggest one we've really been seeing lately too is with teachers the instruction piece I mean Madeline Hunter come on she had it figured out we know more or less
SPEAKER_03:more or less anyway I mean almost any legit instructional expert actually uses her main terms like check for understanding, guided practice, modeling. Oh, you know, introducing the lesson.
SPEAKER_01:I was like anticipatory set.
SPEAKER_03:There we go. Anticipatory set.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:She deserves so much credit. Go on though.
SPEAKER_01:No, she does. And I guess I just wonder, so let's say, because I think for our company and many of our clients who are hopefully listening to this, we've helped them fast track and get their curriculum there. You got it we we're dedicated in Missouri to making sure every teacher walks in knows their standards sees them paced but it's this idea of now structured instruction and we're really struggling if I say kids because I'm now old but if these kids are coming in and they haven't been trained on Madeline Hunter or knowing instruction it's how do we as leaders organize and would you say it's your professional development like how do we help do you think really fast track to understanding of what solid instruction looks like and has it changed Madeline Hunter with AI
SPEAKER_03:pardon me about AI
SPEAKER_01:oh well and then I just wonder how much our instructional you know we always anchor back to Madeline Hunter but then I wonder how that changes with the development of AI because one of the things I think that tuggles with it is people are just throwing kids on computers rather than instructing oh
SPEAKER_03:yeah oh absolutely for what it's worth I just wrote a piece for education week came out about two weeks ago called if literacy i'm sorry i hope i get this title right if literacy is a priority why do we cling to the wrong practices and one and i mentioned this just a short litany of the things that are the real obstacles screen time screen time almost always devolves into test prep multiple choice items read a passage answer questions about things like the main idea or text structure or cause and effect, those kinds of things, which we hope I can say, which we know are antithetical to real authentic literacy. They're glorified test prep. There are so many obstacles to going right back to what you said about, say, effective structured instruction. So many obstacles. The solution to all that is simply show people how to do it. Teach them no differently than I was taught. Teach them no differently than I was. I played football. I was an offensive lineman. Our coach was pretty good at saying, here's how you do it. He'd show us one aspect of effective offensive blocking. Then we would do it. And he'd watch us. And then he'd say, not quite. Do it more like this. And after a few cycles of that, you were way, way better. better at whatever you were doing. I was coached in a total of about two hours in how to teach according to the basic fundamental elements of effective teaching, which are make clear to the student what's being taught and how it will be assessed. We can call that a learning target. Make that crystal clear. You double or triple the number of kids who will succeed on a lesson if you state that clearly and simply, simply The shortest statements are the best. You double or triple the odds of the students meeting that target if it's made clear at the beginning and referred back to and stuck with throughout the lesson. Then you just, I'm just thinking of professional development. You model a lesson one step at a time for teachers that say, now you guys do that for each other. Or one of, and after a few minutes, you might say, one of you, I might be pick, I'm going to pick Valerie at random. Valerie, just come up here and do one thing for us. Show one step of how to make a paper airplane. I literally do this. Just the one step of making a paper airplane. Tell us, pretend we're your students. Tell us how to complete that one step and then cut us loose for guided practice. Always, always give us a time limit or we'll sit there and gape and stare and dither. Give us a time limit. And during that guided practice, Valerie, you walk around and you see how well we're doing on that particular step. And if we're not doing it right, what do you have to do? Reteach. Just one little cycle. Do that with teachers, even a couple three half-hour sessions, and then model it at faculty meetings. meetings within weeks, not months. With any luck at all, you could have an entire faculty teaching vastly better. It's that simple. Show people how to do something. Teach them in small steps. Make them demonstrate that they have it mastered. Give them feedback along the way. In other words, preach teachers just like you would teach students. Let's demystify effective professional development. That's what it is.
SPEAKER_00:You're listening to Transform Ed with Step Up. We'll be right back after this quick break.
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SPEAKER_00:And now let's return to Transform Ed with Step Up. How do you coach school leaders through like those three focus areas that you mentioned, the curriculum, the instruction, the literacy, with all the norms in a school building or in a school district, how do you help schools and leaders understand what to let go of so that you can keep the focus on those things? You know, with all the initiatives that are coming from maybe the district or the PTA or all these things that school leaders have to balance.
SPEAKER_03:You know, Valerie, I think there's only one thing we can do and have hope in this. It might not convince everybody all at once right up front. But if you just do one thing, and that's make the case for the three things I just described, for instance, even if you want to do it just one at a time, you might even start the conversation just by saying, time up, folks. Raise your hand if you think it's important for us to do the most vital things first and to give them the lion's share of our energy and attention. You're probably going to see all the hands go up. Follow it up with another logical question. All of this is logical. Well, should we not work real hard to identify those things that would have the largest and swiftest, most timely impact on student learning? You're probably going to get lots of agreement to that. And then you say, well, what are they? And then make your case. Then say, look, here are all the people. You know their names. Some of you are familiar with their books. Here are the people that say that maybe curriculum is the biggest. And make that case. Make a PowerPoint, you know, steal from books like mine and just make a PowerPoint with a few quotes, a little bit of data and say, look, this appears to be quite possibly number one. Then make the same case, you know, again, in the same way with the other two and say, wouldn't we want to do those things? No. And would we not finally admit that we can't do everything, can we? And we can only do one thing at a time. So where do we begin? You know, I actually wanted to write a book just with the title Priority. In fact, the last two articles, I wanted to just put priority in the title as the most prominent word. We need to embrace priority. It makes absolute logical sense for us to stop periodically and say, are we embracing what would have the largest impact on what we want most? And keep saying that to leaders. Don't you want that which works best? best, to have the greatest benefit for our kids, that's priority. Don't we want to be priority driven? And keep pounding on it. And going back to something I said earlier, if you don't bring everyone with you, you don't have to. Get a single leader to, number one, embrace the priorities and produce results as soon as possible. And by results, most of the time, in terms of student outcomes, and share that with people. Pelt people with results from successful, smart efforts. That's the only way we'll get that wheel turning.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I completely love that. And I think that's the most frustrating thing for me is that the priority isn't always on student learning. No. We've prioritized all these other things. And that's why I love about your work. It's so simple. You're like, it's logical. What is your biggest priority? What are we having kids go to school for to learn? But that's usually the last thing. So again, just reiterating, it's the curriculum. It's how you teach and learn But here's where I think, and I would love your takes, I know we're almost out of time too, but this idea of instructional leadership. Because I think that's where I happen to be someone who worked at district office in curriculum and got the call, will you please come be a principal? Don't take that call in the middle of the year, I learned. But I was dedicated to instructional leadership and that was something I was comfortable with. But I think there's a lot of leaders right now because even that model you're talking about of being brave and modeling to teachers or facilitating that. I wonder if it doesn't happen because we have so many leaders who are great at managers but don't feel great as instructional leaders. So there's this vulnerability. And I just really feel that. And I wonder your take on, don't you think it's understanding yourself as a leader when you take that job, part of your role is instructional leadership and you have to dive in and get messy with teachers to make that a priority. Well,
SPEAKER_03:yes, absolutely. And yet, going back to something you said, you say, well, some leaders either perceive themselves to be better at managing than they are at real instructional leadership. Now, that's a big overarching issue. We really need to stop bringing anyone into the position of principal who isn't primarily number one talent ought to be they were excellent teachers. Excellent teachers. We need to stop bringing Forgive me. I quote
SPEAKER_01:you on that.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, we're not there yet. So then that's one piece. But what about the ones right now who are in there? Let them lean on a teacher or two. You know, Rick DeFore, the late Rick DeFore, was very good at saying, form a small committee of your leadership team at your school consisting of some of your better, most talented teachers, of course. And they can do, you may not be the best. You may not have ever been the best teacher and you're a principal. That doesn't mean you can't learn about good instruction, work with even one or two teachers and get them to study up with you on good instruction and then model for the rest of the faculty. And then once teachers have been trained, you know, big word here, you know, before we get out of here this morning, you guys, monitor. We got to monitor. If you say this is something we ought to do, and you do a PD or a short demonstration of an effective lesson, that's only the beginning. Once a week, for a single hour, walk around the school and look for evidence that the most recent PD session, even if it was a 20-minute session, look for evidence that it's happening and happening successfully. And it probably isn't going to be happening either consistently or effectively as you'd like. So you just like a good lesson. You go right back to that faculty meeting where you send messages out to people saying, we're doing this pretty well, but not that. Only about half of you are actually using checks for understanding. Some of you who are doing it are doing it, but not quite right. Here's something we've learned. Keep it as anonymous as possible until you have to make it personal. Address whole faculty issues until more and more people are on board and you're sharing their success and results and only then go to the Mike Schmokers to say, Mike, as actually happened to me when I first learned about this kind of teaching, Mike, you're still calling on kids with their hands raised primarily. You're allowing most of your kids just to tune out. That is how I would do it. There's nothing terribly complicated about that model of leadership.
SPEAKER_00:So as we wrap up, I want to ask one more question. You know, this podcast is called Transform Ed. We focus a lot on like reform, but also this coming back to the basics, which is really, I think, where you are shining the light. But if you think of like an education crystal ball, how do you see the field of education evolving over the next few years? And kind of a layer of that is the simplicity that you're trying to keep. How does that work sort of in the future of education?
SPEAKER_03:Well, if we look to the future, we see, on the one hand, some encouraging things. Emily Hanford's work sold a story, all that. Very encouraging that there was actually a collective effort. Her effort, other people's that have brought this issue to the fore, and pretty much everybody. Let me just say, you can overdo phonics. You can. I'm a big phonist. It was a high time we brought phonics to the fore. You can overdo it, but the good news is we realized systematic, intense phonics instruction is probably real smart for just about every kid. So we have a little bit of that going on. We even have some really, this USFL coming out of Florida seems to be a real successful phonics program. We have people like Daniel Willingham being candid enough, like you two, to say, there's a massive gap between what we do in schools and what research tells us is most effective. So there seems to be maybe, I have to say maybe, bubbling up this awareness. That's encouraging. The discouraging thing is, and you guys communicate, you too, forgive me, communicated with me about this early in an email about the fact that we, oh, I lost my train of thought. have thought, forgive me. One of your questions, in essence, had to do with the buffer. That was it. That was what I wanted to come back to. Until we get rid of that buffer that hides both the gap between good and bad practice, and it hides the potential, enormous, massive potential, of what would happen to real students if we did the right thing things, I don't think we'll ever get off the ground. There has to be, I don't know, I don't know where it'll come from other than just a critical mass of individuals or teams or people like you, organizations like yours, a certain critical mass of ed professors, PD providers who begin to realize and push this message that we could be vastly better and do so much more for students and revolutionize public education if we stopped doing the most common practices, there's no getting around it, eliminate most of the most common practices and replace them with the ones that hardly get any attention. And just to be reiterative, there's rarely a school that actually has a literacy-rich, coherent curriculum in place, even though it's probably the single largest factor. Very, very, very few teachers know enough about structured instruction and checks for understanding to implement it successfully. Huge opportunities here. Number three, what we call literacy and English language arts instruction consists enormously of time-wasting activities like coloring, cutting, pasting, test prep, glitter, making posters, these kinds of things. All this negative points to a huge, it's almost like going to a hospital that never heard of penicillin.
SPEAKER_02:We
SPEAKER_03:have antibiotics. Use them because they're transformative.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. What a way to end. Punch in the gut. No, it was just really empowering and just solidifies. I think sometimes you feel like you're crazy because you think you get it figured out and then all these other things are constantly competing. So just really refreshing to hear you. It is simple, but we've made it more complicated than we need to. So it definitely empowers in our work to be those voices to fight back and do the right things for kids and teachers. I do have hope we'll circle it back.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, I do too. We have to live in that hope.
SPEAKER_00:Yes,
SPEAKER_03:we
SPEAKER_00:do. All right. Well, Dr. Schmoker, thank you so much for taking the time with us today. Dr. Schmoker reminds us that the true progress in education, it doesn't come from chasing trends. It comes from the tried and true methods following the research. I had a lot of show notes from today as you were chatting So for our listeners, please check out those show notes. Thanks for tuning in to Transform Ed with Step Up. Keep pressing education forward. This episode was produced by Valerie Montgomery with assistance from Jamie Stevens. Transform Ed with Step Up is brought to you by Step Up Consulting Services, your how-to partners for school improvement, experts in curriculum, instruction, and assessment.
